CLEVELAND, Ohio — In this episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast, hosts Ethan Sands, Chris Fedor, and Jimmy Watkins discuss the Cavs’ upcoming Game 3 in the Eastern Conference semifinals against the Indiana Pacers, analyzing the potential for a playoff comeback.
More Cavs coverage
Takeaways:
- Cavs are looking to bounce back in Game 3 after two losses.
- Cavs’ defense effectively disrupted the Pacers’ offense in Game 2.
- Donovan Mitchell’s free throw shooting was crucial for the Cavs.
- Sam Merrill’s unexpected performance provided a boost for the team.
- Injury updates on key players like Darius Garland and Evan Mobley are critical.
- The Cavs’ handling of injuries has faced criticism from the media.
- Transparency in injury reporting is essential for team credibility.
- The playoffs reveal the true competitive nature of players.
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Read the automated transcript of today’s podcast below. Because it’s a computer-generated transcript, it may contain errors and misspellings.
Ethan Sands: What up, Cavs Nation? I’m your host, Ethan Sands, and I’m back with another episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast. And joining me today, Chris Fedor, who is still currently in Cleveland, getting ready to head over to Indy tomorrow for the Cavs game. We’ll get there in a second. And as well, Jimmy Watkins joins us, too. But obviously we are here to preview Game three of the Eastern Conference semifinals as the Cavs are down two games and have lost the first two while being the number one seed while being at home. And now they get to travel to Indy, where the Indiana Pacers have been so good at home this season, even though they do have some background we know about when it comes to home games in the playoffs. But, Chris, first and foremost, what are you looking forward to the most? Heading to Indy and the possibilities of Game three that are presented to you?
Chris Fedor: Looking forward to Harry and Izzy’s? Duh. You kidding me? An Indianapolis staple. Every time I go to Indy, I always make sure that I go to Harry and Izzy’s or St. Elmo, whichever one is available. And about a week ago or so, a lot of us that are traveling to Indy already set a reservation for Harry and Izzy. So that’s going to be Saturday night. Really looking forward to that. As for Games three and four, looking forward to seeing how the Cavs play on the road and if they can, you know, muster up the kind of energy and physicality that they showed in Game two. Everybody knew coming off the Game one loss, being at home, the Cavs were going to play with a different level of aggression, different level of physicality, intensity, all those kinds of things, because there were things in Game one that they felt like were in their control, that they didn’t do well enough. Now, as they shift to Indy and the Pacers are going to have their home crowd, they’re going to be really, really confident. Their role players are probably going to play better at home than they do on the road. I’m curious to see if, like, all the things that the Cavs did that were in their control for a majority of Game two, if they’re going to be able to carry that over into Indy. It’s not like they’re going into msg, right? It’s not like they’re going into TD Garden. It’s not like they’re going into where Oklahoma City plays home games. Indy’s not like the best home court advantage, but playing on the road in the playoffs is going to be tough no matter where you go.
Jimmy Watkins: We’ve been talking A lot about the injuries. Been talking a lot about schematic stuff. Cavs looked really good in both the two Miami road games. We talked about how that’s not a great atmosphere. We talked about how that’s a very different kind of team. I would just like to point out remind when the Cavs went to Orlando last year against a comparable team, they lost those two games by like 30 points. So I have a lot of questions, mainly will Darius Garland, Evan Moby and DeAndre Heiner play? Let’s start there. But beyond that, like whether those guys are available or not. I have a lot of questions about the non Donovan Mitchells of the world going to going on the road here.
Ethan Sands: We’ll get to the injuries in just a second. But Chris, I did want to ask you and Jimmy, I did want to ask you as well. What did you guys feel like the Cavs did well? What do you feel like they had in their control for 36 minutes? Let’s put it because it felt like to me the entire fourth quarter was a little bit of a slide rather than just the last minute being a collapse. It felt like more like a slow leak to me than a collapse. What do you feel like they had control of and will look to exploit or utilize or emphasize in game three in Indiana? Chris, let’s start with you guys.
Chris Fedor: It just made Indy’s offense look uncomfortable. Indy was turning the basketball over. They were denying Tyrese Halliburton on the defensive end of the floor. So a of lot lot of the Pacers offense was funneling through Andrew Nemhard. He’s a good playmaker. He had a really good game again, but he also committed a bunch of turnovers. You can bother him in a way that is more difficult to bother Tyrese Halliburton. So they made the catches on Halliburton really difficult. They made it so that he couldn’t be the engine of the offense consistently. Fourth quarter he completely took over and obviously he won the game for Indy. But you just saw an Indy offense that was a little bit more uncomfortable. They weren’t playing at the same breakneck pace. They were getting into their offense. A little bit later they were pushed further out beyond the three point line. So they were starting their offense further away, a little bit deeper into the shot clock. I thought the Cavs did a better job of covering ground and contesting shots and being physical and pushing Indiana off their spots and all those different things that the Cavs said that they needed to do going into game two. For a majority of the game, they were able to do those things. So I thought that was really, really important. And I thought offensively like majority of the offense ran through Donovan Mitchell and I think everybody knew going into that game, given what was missing from the Cavs, that that was going to be the case. But you know, playing with just one big as opposed to two bigs, that made the Cavs a little bit more difficult to guard. That made the Cavs more spaced out. That made Indiana have to cover more ground on the defensive end of the floor. And especially in the first quarter when the Cavs were banging a bunch of threes and the offense was really, really rhythmic and they assisted on nine of their first 10 shots that looked more like the Cavs that we grew accustomed to throughout the course of the regular season and certainly in the first round matchup against Miami. So I thought the way that they pressured the ball against Indy, the way that they forced them into mistakes and turnovers and I thought their ability to just bother Indy and make it more difficult for the Pacers offense, those were the things that, that stood out to me and they’re very much in control of a lot of those things.
Jimmy Watkins: I would also say make an Indy take the ball out of the basket like manipulating the. Obviously the Cavs like to play fast too, but they don’t want India to play fast.
Chris Fedor: Right.
Jimmy Watkins: You know that and the sometimes the easiest way to slow down transition team is to score on them and I feel like Donovan did so I mean shooting 21 free throws, that’ll slow you down.
Chris Fedor: Yep, sure will.
Jimmy Watkins: That’ll slow you down. I also thought they, I mean Donovan still took 30 shots and Ty Jerome probably took. I was watching all his shot attempts. They probably took a few too many. Although I watching it back, I see a little bit more of what he was seeing. Like he actually did miss a lot of makeable shots for him. Now there is there. There does reach a. This is an aside but there does reach a point where when you’re one for pick a number, maybe a few more like maybe it’s not time to break out the step back three. Even if that is a shot that you quote unquote usually make. Maybe that’s a. That’s a keep it moving and some of these were late clock. There are also some open guys on some of these shots as well that, that he didn’t get that he didn’t hit get the ball. But yeah controlling the pace and I did think they did a better job of shot distribution. Like Maxter’s got 18 shots up. And maybe that’s because he made eight of them. Like there’s a chicken or the egg thing. Did he, did he find his rhythm because they got him more attempts? Did he make. Did he get more attempts because he found his rhythm out in them? But him and Sam Merrill got 28 shots up. That is I think the rest, like everyone not named Don, Evan Mobley and ty Jerome took 35 combined in game one. So that’s an improvement. That’s an improvement. And that’s particularly. I think in the fourth quarter it did turn into almost exclusively the Donovan Mitchell show, although Max got up seven shots in the fourth as well. He just didn’t make as many without. Without Darius and Evan. Like, I don’t think anyone would have faulted him if they, if Donovan played even more hero ball. And trust me, he played a lot. He played a lot. But they did it. There was a concerted effort particularly early in the game to get some other people involved. And I just like to. This will go by the ways, but Sam Merrill, I’m not ready to say, but Samuel, like a big game guy, like game two, really need an unexpected source of offense. He goes for a playoff career high 14 points. Game 7 last year in Orlando, dude is basically not played in competitive, any competitive minutes in the series. In a second quarter stint here you go for two, you get yanked. I think there’s a lot of playing with his confidence going on there. He goes for eight points in 11 minutes. That’s something. That’s something. And I know we’ve been. We’ve been sort of side eyeing Kenny from leaning so much into the. Myself included leaning into the Sam Merrill movement, shooting distracting defenses kind of thing. But that impressed me. And I mean there will certainly be less Sam Merrill of Darius and DeAndre play tomorrow, but that’s, that’s just something to. To note going forward. Sam Merrill impressed me because just the magnitude that. That was that game, his performance.
Ethan Sands: Samuel’s been good all year, right. And he’s. He’s been known as the shooter. And I think obviously with who was out, they needed not only volume, but they needed threes. And I think you automatically look to Max and Sam in those situations. And thankfully they knocked them down. Unfortunately for the Cavs, nobody else did. Right. They had nine of the 11 threes. They combined four. The other thing, the biggest thing for me was what Chris started with, which is the defense and shutting the water off of Tyrese Halliburton. He was not good until the fourth quarter. He had 11 of his 19 points in the fourth quarter. He had four assists total in the game. I think he had one assist in the first half. That is in large part due to the full court defense of Max Strus, Isaac Okoro and Dean Weight. And I think it cannot go unnoticed that these players know their role and continue to play it at full blast. Like they know that they’re going to be tired. They know that their entire role is on the defensive end. Max Strust is not this because they need him to be both. But I just think it’s going to be interesting to see how Kenny Atkinson utilizes the these other guys like Javante Green that he got for these kind of spot minutes and especially after regretting after Game two that they ran out of gas because he didn’t play as many players off his bench. What does he do now? And I think that’s the question that I’m having is what are the changes? What are the adjustments that are going to be made and how much is that going to be in the rotation for Game three? But I do want to get into the injury stuff because obviously that is the elephant in the room heading into Indy and obviously the Cavs got on a flight today after shoot around, not practice. Chris shoot around. But Chris, obviously you being the inside dog, do you have information about the viability of Darius Garland, DeAndre Hunter and Evan Mobley and if they will play or try and give it a go in Game three?
Chris Fedor: So from everything that I’m hearing, there is a chance. There is a chance for all three of them to play Friday night. But a lot of this depends on, okay, what’s it look like in shoot around tomorrow? The Cavs are holding Shoot around at Cambridge Field House. What does it look like? How do these guys respond? And the Cavs didn’t do a lot today on the practice floor. It was a walk through, it was a shoot around. But I’m told that Evan specifically was moving better than he was the other day. He was able to put weight on his foot. He was able to take shots without issue. Now a lot of those were standstill shots from what I’m told, and they weren’t a lot of movement shots and he most certainly has not like pushed it when it comes to his ankle and the Cavs have not. Since he hurt his ankle, the Cavs have not once seen him run full court. Not once. So can you do that tomorrow at shoot around? Can you do it tomorrow after shoot around? It’s a pretty big deal in terms of what his availability is going to be and then the Darius thing. Look, there has been optimism at various points throughout the last two weeks about Darius and about his chances of at least quote unquote, trying to give it a go. But this is a tricky injury by nature, and some days it feels better than others. Some days he feels like he could be more effective, and other days he feels like he can’t be as effective. Some days the training staff feels like his toe is making the necessary progress, and another day the training staff feels like, nope, it’s. It’s still not to the point where it needs to be. I think the Cavs have done Darius a disservice and it’s unfortunate because they went through the same thing last year with Jared Allen and they continue to think that they’re in the right in the way that they’re handling these kinds of injuries and the designations that they’re putting on these kinds of injuries. They believe that they’re protecting the players. They believe that there’s some gamesmanship and strategic things involved, keeping an opponent off balance by listing a guy as questionable as opposed to doubtful or out or whatever characterization you want to put to it. But like the injury that Darius has, from everything that I have read and all of the medical people that I’ve tried to talk to over the last couple of days, it’s like a two week injury. So like labeling him day to day and labeling him questionable over and over and over again, when many of these times there’s been absolutely no shot of him playing. No shot. He’s not even on the pregame warm up list at various points. He’s not even on the court going through a pregame warmup to test his toe just to kind of see he’s not even taking part in some of these shoot arounds. Like the chances of a guy playing after not going through anything at shoot around, yes, it could happen. Of course, these things are very, very fluid, but it’s rare in the NBA. So listing him as questionable over and over and over again, the optics of that are really, really bad. And I don’t think they’re doing him any favors. And I don’t think you just.
Jimmy Watkins: They just went through this with Jarrett last year.
Chris Fedor: That’s what I’m saying. They didn’t do Jared Allen any favors. They didn’t learn from this at all. And part of it is, and I’ve had multiple conversations with multiple people in the organization about this, they believe they’re in the right. They believe they’re handling these injuries the correct way. And these injury Designations the correct way. I don’t think they are and it’s unfortunate. But like, I do think, I do get the sense that there is a shred of optimism when it comes to all three of these guys playing on Friday. But what happens Friday morning at Shoot around and how they look and how they feel and how effective they believe they can be, all that different stuff, that’s going to matter greatly when it comes to their availability.
Ethan Sands: Chris, I just want to point out that you didn’t mention DeAndre Hunter. Is there any update on him? And I just want to point out before you continue that the thing that I was worried about the most with especially Evan and DeAndre, is the swelling in their injuries, ankle and thumb when traveling. Because this is the first time that they will be traveling in an airplane. We know how that works.
Chris Fedor: Only a 40 minute flight. That certainly helps. It’s right next door. Basically you know DeAndre from everything that I was able to find out about his thumb issue and like what’s normal? You know, the fact that game two was about 48 hours, maybe a little less than that. That was just a really, really quick turnaround for somebody who had their dislocated thumb popped back into place. The Cavs were worried about his feel. The Cavs were worried about him gripping a basketball. The Cavs were worried about him getting it banged with all the physicality of the series and how much the Pacers are grabby. Like that’s just the way that you have to play when you’re playing against the Cavs offense. And it’s so rhythmic and it’s so free flowing and there’s so much movement. Like you have to grab, you have to push, you have to hold and all those different things. So it’s no knock against the Pacers. They’re doing defensively what teams have to do against the Cavs, but the Cavs were worried about all those kinds of things. I don’t think, like, I don’t think it’s going to be a situation where like his thumb feels great if he plays, but can it feel good enough to give something? Maybe again with him just like the other guys, it’s going to depend on like when he goes through shoot around, the kinds of things that he’s able to do, the kinds of things he’s not able to do. How does the thumb feel on jump shots? How does the thumb feel on passes? How does the thumb feel on dribbling? How does the thumb feel when it comes to finishing around the basket and all those different things that he has to do to be an effective player. How does his thumb feel when it comes to taking contact and guarding guys and fighting around screens and playing in the post against Pascal Siakamin, all those different kinds of things. It does feel like there’s a chance, though. There’s a chance that all three of them could potentially play in. In game three.
Jimmy Watkins: So with DeAndre, I mean, him. Him just as a defensive body, that would be super helpful. I mean, obviously the idea of him is that he does that and he’s a knockdown shooter and he can create some shots. I don’t know what he’s gonna be able to do in that department, but him as a defensive body, that’d be encouraging. When I hear that Evan Mobley hasn’t run up the court yet, that was speed. That wigs me out.
Chris Fedor: Yeah.
Jimmy Watkins: Because that’s all the Pacers want to do is run and run and run and run and run and run and run. Now, FMob could take some Advil. Let’s call it before the game. Might make it a little bit easier to run. I don’t know that. That kind of weird me out. But there are things that you can do to treat that ailment, I guess. I also want to reiterate what Chris said about the listing them is questionable. The gamesmanship angle. What are you getting out of that? I know, like, Rick Carlisle goes up. Went up before both games. First game, he literally said, let’s not kid ourselves. Garland’s playing 0 for 1 in the newsbreaking game. Greg, that’s all right. It’s not as easy as it looks. Then he went up there in the second game and he goes. We prepare as if they’re gonna play. They’re all gonna play regardless. And so. And the Cavs that they don’t play. Then what? The Pacers have to scrap their game plan? No, no, man. Like, that’s so ridiculous. So ridiculous to me. If someone. If you’re. If you want to be cutesy and like, it’s trending toward they’re going to play. If they’re actually questionable, sure, I guess it’s no harm, no foul. But when we’re talking about, like, legitimate injuries and keep guys out, I just don’t see the benefit in that. Whatsoever. Whatsoever.
Chris Fedor: I mean, look at the Warriors. The warriors labeled step out so quickly.
Jimmy Watkins: Yeah.
Chris Fedor: And they gave the exact diagnosis of the grade one. They even went to the grade. They were overly transparent when it came to Steph, and they made him available at a shoot around so that he. Even though he was not going to be available so that he could talk about his injury, so he could shed some light onto it, so that the fan base in Golden State doesn’t have to wonder about these things, so that, you know, people around the NBA whose job it is to find out answers to these kinds of questions. Don’t keep digging over and over and over again. And look at Boston. Like, Sam Houser got injured on that terrible closeout that he had, where he just, like, I don’t know what he was thinking on that. And it’s like, they didn’t list them as questionable. They labeled them doubtful almost immediately the next day, basically. So, you know, there’s a term that I use for this sort of thing, and the Cavs have done this in the past. Like. Like we said the Jared Allen thing last year, and we talked about the frustrations of that and we talked about the eye rolls that came in the locker room as a result of that, because they’re like, well, wait a minute, like you said, he was day to day, like, what’s going on here sort of thing. It’s called majoring in the minor. That’s what it is. The Cavs are worrying about the wrong things when it comes to this kind of stuff. Look, during the regular season, it’s different. You want to take a cautious approach. Totally get it. You want to be the kind of team that protects players and stuff like that and doesn’t reveal too much when it comes to it. Okay, all right, fine, get it. You want to take that cautious approach. That’s your right to do that. But in the playoffs, it becomes a little bit different. Right? The questions arise a little bit more. And when you list a guy as day to day or questionable over and over and over for two straight weeks, like, that just doesn’t. That doesn’t compute with people, and it doesn’t add up. So it’s. It’s unfortunate because I think Darius has taken a level of criticism from people that. That is unwarranted, and it’s because of. Not like anything other than the Cavs listing it a certain kind of way.
Jimmy Watkins: Unfortunate is a weird way to say it’s dumb. I think it’s dumb that they’re doing this. They’re hurting their own players, public image to gain basically nothing. I’ll even. I’ll even hear you up in the regular season. I’ll even hear you out that, like, a team’s coming in, they’re playing their fourth game this week, and maybe they’re not quite as familiar with your 13th man, that could legitimately be a tiny, so small schematic advantage in the playoffs. These dudes are studying you top down. There’s not a single tendency on the Cavs, especially now three games in the Pacers know you. It’s just, it’s just ridiculous to me. I do want to say this though, about Darius. He says a two week injury typically. Well, it’s been two weeks now and I continue to be. My ears perk up this Jason Lloyd asked the first. Now Joe Varden’s asking Kenny today at practice, Jason Lloyd asked, is it a pain tolerance thing? A couple days ago, Joe Varden’s asking, is it Darius’s decision to not play? And Kenny once again tap dances in his chair around the question, starts talking about his son getting ready for the playoffs. He had a sprained ankle. And how he tells the son, well, son, you know, only you know if your body’s right. Okay, that means yes to me.
Chris Fedor: Yeah, that means yes to me.
Jimmy Watkins: That means yes to me. I’m, I’m, I can’t. I’m only inferring from the ramblings of a man who didn’t want to actually answer the question, this is where Kenny’s, by the way, this is where Kenny’s candor hurts him because he knows that we expect so like, we expect real answers from him because he gives them to us. And again, I appreciate it, but in this particular case, it might have helped him over the course of the season to hit us with a few no comments. So he could hit us with a no comment on this one man. Like, once again, you’re not doing your guy any, you’re not giving Darius any goodwill on that.
Chris Fedor: No.
Jimmy Watkins: By answering the question that way. It just doesn’t make any sense the way they’re approaching that.
Chris Fedor: I mean, this organization has done things wrong in the past, but they certainly do a lot of things right. There’s a reason why they won 64 games in the regular season, the number one seed in the Eastern Conference. You know, teams around the NBA have so much respect for Kenny Atkinson, for the organization itself, for president of basketball operations Kobe Altman. But since Kobe has been in charge, like, they do not know how to handle these injuries properly. They don’t. Like it has been a problem for this organization and even today was an example of it. You know, the questions coming to Kenny, you know, it is, it’s going to like make it so that his answer isn’t what it was this afternoon. Because like you said, Jimmy, it didn’t do him any Favors like nobody. It doesn’t seem like anybody is on the same page when it comes to the communication and the message that they want to send out there when it comes to these particular injuries.
Ethan Sands: You know, the last time we got a full injury breakdown for players, last.
Chris Fedor: Year, it’s probably a long time ago.
Ethan Sands: Last year, when Evan and Darius were both listed as out for four to six weeks with extended injuries, when they said that Evan was going to go through knee surgery and that Darius was dealing with. He was dealing with the fractured jaw. That’s the last time.
Jimmy Watkins: To be fair, they haven’t had a ton of injuries since then.
Ethan Sands: Yes, they have. Yes, they have. Dean Wayne Small picture.
Jimmy Watkins: That’s true.
Ethan Sands: How long was D. Wayne out?
Jimmy Watkins: That happened last year.
Ethan Sands: And. And the other thing about the Jared Allen thing, I don’t think Kobe Almond wanted to tell us about Jared Allen’s injury. Like, when he was asked, he was like, I forget the medical term. Is it cracked? Pierced? I might have been bruised. I like when he was in his end of season.
Jimmy Watkins: Let me help you, Kobe. There was a hole in them. There was a hole.
Ethan Sands: If things would have went wrong, Jared Allen could have punctured his lung with his own rib. That’s how bad it was. Right. So. And I’m not trying to say that I’m expecting something worse to come out later, but you’re creating some sort of narrative around, like, what if Darius Garland has a broken toe? What if instead of a sprained toe, what would that mean for the organization? What would that mean for this team to now a second time in a second year, have doubts, expectations, like. And as Chris was saying, there’s been backlash. There’s been criticism not only around the league, but also just around the fan base because you owe it to them to try and help them understand what’s going on with their players. Right. And I understand the gamesmanship of it. I understand that you feel like you are in the right to do whatever, and you are. You can do whatever you want. But the Golden State warriors said, hey, if you’re going to pay money to come to the playoff game, you’re not going to see Steph, you’ll see Jimmy and Draymond. That’s what you get. And Anthony Edwards, of course. But I just think there’s levels to this that if something does happen, if something does come out, there will be questions at the end of season press conference where it’s like, why do you continue to do this? Why does this continue? Why is there a trend? This should have been a One time thing. Scrapped it and this should have never happened again.
Jimmy Watkins: Can I also. I have a different question? Same topic, different question. What is the threshold for effectiveness in this situation? Like, do you think they say Darius.
Chris Fedor: Do you think Steph can play?
Jimmy Watkins: No.
Chris Fedor: No, he can’t play. Neither could Darius. There’s your answer. Like, there are certain injuries that you cannot play with. Right? Like, we. We can all admit that. Like, why is nobody questioning Steph? Oh, my God. Like, get out there. Fight through it.
Jimmy Watkins: Play.
Ethan Sands: You know. You know why they’re not questioning him? Because he was labeled out from the get.
Chris Fedor: Totally get that. But it’s like, we sit here and we have these conversations about Darius, and it’s like we’re trying to determine whether or not he should play, whether or not he’s good enough to play. This is the freaking playoffs. Like, Darius has worked his entire career to get to a point where he’s on a team that has a chance to win a championship. His legacy is tied to what he does in the playoffs. He can’t play. If he could play, he’d be playing. But, like, there are certain injuries where you just can’t play. Like, at some point, we, the collective, we have to accept that. We can accept that Steph is going to miss some time because he’s got a hamstring injury that is preventing him from playing the game of basketball. Right. We can accept that Sam Houser doesn’t really matter in the big picture of things, but we can accept that Sam Houser has an ankle injury that is so severe that he can’t play the game of basketball. We were willing to accept that Anthony Davis, at various points throughout the course of this year, could not play basketball because he had an injury that was preventing it. Why can’t we accept that Darius Garland also has that same kind of injury? Because it’s a toe. But what’s the issue?
Ethan Sands: I think it has to do with the designation. One, totally get that.
Chris Fedor: Yeah. But we’ve already touched on that.
Ethan Sands: Yeah. Two, I think it’s. There was also an article that came out that was like, Steph was crying when he found out that he could not play. Like, when he got the grade, when he got the designation of his injury told to him, like, he broke down in tears. And we don’t have that emotional connection with Darius because we simply don’t know what it is. We don’t know what’s going on. And I’m not saying that this is in light of anything that Darius has done. And I don’t think there should be any basis to say that Darius Garland is soft or isn’t trying to play or anything like that. Because, Chris, you’re absolutely right. It’s the playoffs and this team needs Darius and he knows that and that probably is hurting him more than anything. So I think all of the work, and that’s why it’s difficult, because as you mentioned, Steph made himself available to speak even though he wasn’t going to play. Right. We haven’t had that freedom to talk to Darius about his emotions of the situation because one, we don’t know what’s going on behind the scenes. He hasn’t been made available. None of these things have been taken. And I want to also mention when I was talking about the injury updates and whatever, Ty Jerome is another one last year where he was dealing with this ankle injury and they had held that back for weeks until they were like, okay, he’s going to have surgery. And sure, you have to work through these kinds of things, but that’s also withholding information that you already had that they were trying to figure out whether or not he had to go through surgery. He was in a walking boot trying to take shots because that’s how bad he wanted to be on the floor. Right. There’s different understandings of what is going on because of the information that we have been given. And I think that’s not just us as reporters, but also as fans, the fans trying to figure out what’s going on. And I think that’s the only way I can articulate where Jimmy is coming from when it comes to whether or not he’s playing. Because we all know that these are not only NBA level players, these are NBA level competitors as well. As much as we might think we’re competitors and hungry and all these things, these guys have a different gear that they’re able to tap into that they different level of want to. So I don’t think there’s any kind of questioning whether Darius can or wants to play, because if he could, he would and he’d be out there. It’s just a matter of what he’s being allowed to do physically and whether or not he’s being told that he can’t. Because it has also been a medical decision, as Kenny mentioned as well. And I think it’s important to note that because the medical information that they’re getting is not the same that we’re getting and that’s kind of bringing that whole full circle. But I do want to get to our last segment of the podcast because we’ve been talking about this injury stuff the whole time, and I think we need to get into a different conversation. There have been five teams to come back from down 02 when losing both games to start the series at home. The Boston Celtics and the Cleveland Cavaliers find themselves in the same situation. Obviously the Boston Celtics playing against the New York Knicks. And I want to ask you guys, which of these two teams do you think could pull off the comeback? Or do you think both of these two teams flame out in the first round? Jimmy, let’s start with you. Do you think one of these teams can pull off a comeback? Do you think that it’s Boston? Do you think that it’s the Cavs? What’s your mindset?
Jimmy Watkins: I think Boston will. I. I hate the way they have played those first two games. They are, they are like the poster child for the shot quality conversation right now. It’s like, well, they’re getting, you know, 10 for 40 from three in game two, 14 for. I don’t even know what, 60 something in game one. Some of those are going to start going down. It’s like, yeah, dude, but they didn’t. So you should probably change your approach at some time. Especially what do we always say about the Celtics and the Cavs and pitchers? They have guys who can shoot, pass and, and they could triple. Yeah, they could dribble. Jason Tatum can go to the rim. Jim Brown can go to the rim. The guy at times the lone rim protector is freaking Carl Anthony Towns. Go to the rim, go to the room and even if he’s there, attack him. It’s insane. At some point when that series, either Boston’s going to start making more like at least like low to mid-30s Percentage of threes, or they’re going to figure out, oh, we can do this other thing. We could go in, we could attack the rim. The rim. The Knicks. Mitchell Robinson has the highest plus minus in that series. I think that’s kind of interesting as a, as a rim deterrent. But like these guys, we can bring them out to the perimeter and we could go attack the rim. That’s one of one and or both of those things are going to happen, I think. And the Celtics are more talented than the Knicks. They’ve smacked the Knicks around the regular season. The Cavs, I mean, this goes back like if they were healthy, I think they could, if they had somehow found this, if they were somehow found the self in this situation with Evan and Darius and DeAndre or even like two of those three, one of them being Evan, like, I think this is doable because I do think there was some variance in that first loss. And they, I mean, we all know they should have won the second game. I just think when you introduce. It’s going to be really, really, really hard. I think I’ll take Chris’s point a step further. It’s. We should, we should cool it on the judgment of these guys for not playing. And then we should really temper our expert expectations for how they look when they do start playing. Because again, if I’m hearing that Evan Mobley’s not sprinting up and down the court right now, that doesn’t make me feel any better. And no level of quote, unquote, advil is going to make it feel better long term. It might help during. You know, it might help. Might help him do it for stretches of each half, but at some point you’re going to wake up the next morning and feel that, yeah, like these guys, like when they, if, if they do decide to play tomorrow, these injuries are probably not going to get better anytime soon. And I’ll be, I would be really interested. Like, the minutes. Conversation around those guys, particularly Darius, is going to be really interesting. I think so. I just. It’s harder for me to see it with the Cats. There’s just too many variables.
Chris Fedor: Yeah. I think the other thing that stands out to me is so the first two games between Boston and New York, the Celtics have led for 82 minutes or so. Think about that. That’s a long time. In fact, there is a stat that is floating around out there that, like, of all teams that have lost the first two games at home in playoff history, like, nobody has led them for as long as Boston has. So it’s like they are doing positive things. They’ve been up 20 in both games, but, like, the one thing that they can’t let happen keeps happening. They can’t allow it to be a game late in the fourth quarter. They can’t, because the other guy on the other side’s better than them in that situation and he’s going to keep thriving and they’re not going to have the same kind of answers that, you know, New York has. For a team in Boston that struggles in late game situations, they’re just easier to guard. They probably shouldn’t be because they do have Jalen Brown, they do have Jason Tatum. Who knows what’s going on with Porzingis. That’s a really tough situation that they’re trying to deal with there. But, you know, the level of ineffectiveness that, that Boston has had Late in these games just doesn’t make sense. Now. It’s also they are missing some wide, wide, wide open shots. So that’s the other thing that I would point to from Boston. There are moments in these late game situations where Mikel Bridges is coming up with big place or Mitchell Robinson or OG Anunoby, but for a lot of them, you pull up the clips and you’re like, oh my God, like that is a practice jumper basically with of course, the pressure of the playoffs and everything that surrounds that. But the quality of look that Boston is getting in some of these situations, not all of them, but some of them has been pretty good. So it feels like Boston is beating Boston in a lot of ways. The Cavs, like Jimmy said, they’re, they’re guys. There’s so many variables around this and if you believed coming into this series that it was going to be a tough series overall because of the level of respect that you have for Indiana, and I was one of those people that had that level of respect for Indiana that thought it was going to go six games from the very beginning. Indiana is a conference finalist from a year ago. They provide some matchup problems that are difficult for the Cavs that they have to still work, work through. And if they get to full strength, they have a real decision about what they’re going to do with the too big approach. There are some schematic things that they have to consider changing as they move forward in this series, including how much they’re willing to switch when they do switch over, helping all of those kinds of things. So you know, Indiana was going to put stress on this team from the very beginning and it was going to be a tough competitive series from the very beginning. Now you toss in the fact that three of your most important players, even if they do play Friday, even if they do play Sunday, there is a level of, of wonder. How effective are they going to be? How much can they give? What level can they reach compared to, to the level that they played to in the regular season? That helped the Cavs get the number one seed. That helped the Cavs to 64 wins. That allowed Evan Mobley to become defensive player of the year and probably second team all NBA. That allowed Darius Garland to get back to the All Star game. That had DeAndre Hunter in the middle of a career year. That’s what the Cavs needed coming into this series against Indiana. If they can’t get that and they’re already down.02 and their margin for error has shrunk significantly and Indiana’s feeling really good about themselves and they’ve already solved some of the Cavs puzzle. It just makes me hard to say. Yeah, definitively the Cavs can turn around and win four of the five games that remain in this series, if it even gets that far. So for all of those reasons, I would give a slight edge to Boston. I think there’s less uncertainty surrounding the Celtics at this point than there is with the Cavs.
Jimmy Watkins: Can I just say, extended Celtics corner. I again, I agree with Chris on that point. Man, this feels like a golden opportunity for the Cavs.
Chris Fedor: It does.
Jimmy Watkins: Somehow they could pull this out. If somehow, I mean, Boston’s already halfway there. It’s going to have to be at least a six game series for them to get out of there. And who again, who knows. They’re. They’re banged up too. Jaylen Brown with the knee, Jason Tatum with the wrist. Kristo Pois is still, still dealing with the, the after effects of this, of this respiratory illness that he’s got going. He does not look like himself. He is a. We talked about this all year. A key piece in any matchup against the Cavs. It’s like it’s just so. It’s tough because the Cavs did the right thing with the injury management all freaking year long. Rick Carlisle went out of his way before game one to praise them for that, for the way that they managed injuries. And you take a hard fall, you step on a guy’s foot. It’s tough, man. These opportunities do not come around all the time. They really don’t. It so it would just, it would really bite if this is how it ends for Cavs.
Ethan Sands: I think that’s a great point, especially about how if the Boston Celtics don’t make it through, do we really think that New York, this version of New York can take the Cavs? I wouldn’t. But it depends on if this is a healthy version of the Cavs. Right. I then finish with this question, Chris and I. I think you’re going to be annoyed with me because we’ve changed, changed the where the goal posts are for this season so many different times. Obviously it’s fluid because things change when you win 64 games and things change when you lose three of your best players in the Eastern Conference semifinals. But if the Celtics lose to the New York Knicks, are the Cavs satisfied with where they got because they don’t have to play Boston? Because we’ve talked about this constantly this season. The entire goal was to get past Boston. That was the goal in the playoffs that was the next step. Didn’t really matter. Eastern Conference Finals was where they would have to go to get there. But if they get to the Eastern Conference Finals, is that a win instead of where we had it? Getting to the NBA Finals, getting past.
Chris Fedor: Boston, getting to the Eastern Conference Finals? Yeah, I mean, I think that would be a big step for this organization to take. No doubt about it. They can’t control what happens on the other side of the bracket. They can’t control if Boston’s going to continue to crap down their leg in fourth quarter situations. Like, they have to do what is best for them, and they have to control the things that they can control. You know, everything throughout the course of this year that the Cavs were saying, at least publicly, was, it’s about us. We got to focus on us. And I mean, if they find a way to win four of five against Indy and get to the conference finals, that is massive for this organization, whether Boston’s waiting for them in the conference finals or not. And if it’s New York, then they have a better chance of getting out of the conference finals and getting to the NBA Finals, in my opinion, because I just don’t think there is many matchup difficulties that the Cavs would run into against this version of New York, provided that the Cavs are full strength or close enough to full strength. So, you know, I think the goal all along was conference, finals, finals. And like, the reason why we talked about Boston so much and the reason why the Cavs, you know, internally talked about Boston is because they were the reigning champions and there was an assumption that Boston was going to find a way to get there again. But if they’re not there, then just beat whoever is in front of you. There’s not going to be an asterisk attached to it. Just because Boston, like, couldn’t find a way to beat New York, that’s. That’s their fault. That’s on them. So I think if the Cavs, you know, given the circumstances that surround everything in the series now with all these injuries, if the Cavs get to the conference finals, that is a massive win, win for this organization.
Ethan Sands: Jimmy, do you think it matters who the Cavs play if they get to the Eastern Conference finals, Do you think that their season is more of a success if they get past Boston or if they just get to the Eastern Conference finals?
Jimmy Watkins: I mean, I think context matters in any conversation. I think the fact that they’ve gone through these injuries, I think winning this series, given their current context, that would be a huge show of resiliency and maturity and toughness. And like, all the questions that people have had about this team in the past would be answered in the affirmative. That’s. That’s what I think. I mean, like, obviously, I think you get more. More street cred for beating Boston than beating New York. But if you spend. If you. If you shoot all your bullets beating Boston and you get cooked in the.
Ethan Sands: Finals.
Jimmy Watkins: I think you’d rather. You’d rather go, you know, get a chance to New York, get a chance in New York, beat them quicker, and then go get a chance to win a championship. That’s what the Cavs would tell you if they beat Boston, that they would. They would want to keep going. But, yeah, of course you get more street cred for beating the defending champs. Of course, like, next. Next. This time next year, if you beat Boston, there are fewer questions about you.
Ethan Sands: Next.
Jimmy Watkins: If you beat the Knicks, then this time next year and you’re. If you have the same season again, people are still be like, yeah, but she didn’t beat Boston. Yeah, that’s just how this works. That’s just how this works. And I do think that whatever happens to B, like, the more I watch them, like, the more they piss me off, as I’ve said before, and the more my faith wavers in them. They’re. They’re having a classic, like, difficult repeat title year. I think they’re. They’re. Their team is generally wired a little bit like this anyways to play with their food and, you know, feel like they can turn the switch on and off. But there, that’s. That’s. That gets accentuated when you win a title. And I think if. Assuming Boston doesn’t repeat this year, they’re going to be even more dangerous next year because they’re going to have learned some lessons from this, and they will. I think their hunger can be reignited once you realize how hard it is to do it again. And I just. I’m just saying this to reiterate the point. I don’t know that the Celtics, maybe they run into cap issues this. This summer, but, like, their core is going to be strong regardless. I think you could argue this might be as vulnerable as they’ll be in the near future.
Ethan Sands: Unless the rumors that Boston blows up this summer aren’t true.
Jimmy Watkins: What does blow up mean for that?
Chris Fedor: Blowing up could take a bunch of different terms.
Jimmy Watkins: Yeah, right. Right. Even if they. Even if they’ve. They’re trying to skirt the cap, there’s a lot of different ways they can do that. And still be awesome. Still be awesome, right.
Chris Fedor: The other variable here is they could trade for a star like that is not out of the realm of possibility. They have high salary guys. One of them is very, very appealing to another team. So there are going to be guys this offseason that the teams are looking at, you know, Zion, Jaw, Giannis. Obviously star takes on different terms for each person. We understand that there are levels to this, but like Lowry, Markkanen is going to be available. So, you know, given the fact that they have Jaylen Brown, that would be one name that comes to mind. Given the fact that they have other components that they could piece together, like, I wouldn’t rule them out, obviously. Everybody’s looking at Houston as a possibility of making a big move. That makes a lot of sense. Everybody’s looking at Miami as a possibility of making a big move. That would make sense to. Detroit is a team that you have to keep your eye on in terms of making a big move. But you just. If, if the right player is out there and available, even the best teams in the NBA are going to be motivated to try to see if they have an intriguing enough package. So yeah, maybe they do things from a financial standpoint, maybe they do end up changing the roster. But I certainly don’t rule out the fact that Boston, Boston makes moves to improve this off season.
Jimmy Watkins: They also have the, like you said, they have high priced guys. They also have the, the kind of guys that it’s a unique, it’s gonna be a unique star trade market because these like, think about the Bucks, think about the Pelicans, think about the Grizzlies. These are not teams who are trading their stars to rebuild necessarily.
Chris Fedor: Start all over.
Jimmy Watkins: They wanna, they wanna get, they want to trade their star and continue to compete. And the Celtics are uniquely positioned to offer those kinds of players. It’s like, hey, we have this, you know, Tatum’s off the table.
Chris Fedor: The.
Jimmy Watkins: All these other guys over here, these are certified. I can help you win a championship type guys. You know how I know that? Because we just did it. That’s a, that’s a unique type of package to be able to offer.
Ethan Sands: So I’m going to end the podcast with a little bit of housekeeping. I said earlier in the podcast that the last one, the last Cavalier injury update that we got was Evan Mobley and Darius Garland. That was not true. That was, of course, that was hyperbole.
Chris Fedor: I think a lot of people could understand that you were exaggerating the point to make a point.
Ethan Sands: And that’s okay, I’m just clarifying for those who were unaware of my hyperbole, but I did want to make the point that I’ve been covering this team for two seasons now and I have in my email labeled Cavalier status update. For each injury update that the Cavs have given us for any given player, I have 10 emails. There’s been so many more things that could have been listed, talked about, discovered, given information for whatever word you want to use to describe it. This is a team that has been using optics, gamesmanship, again, another variation of words that you could use to try and get leverage on teams in the same sense of trying to build a rapport with their players, of giving like them some grace which is difficult to play and toe that line.
Chris Fedor: I would also say that not every single injury that happens in the NBA requires a decent detailed breakdown, a detailed medical update. Some of them certainly do and they need to be better at these kinds of things. There needs to be more transparency when it comes to the Cavs and injuries. That has been a problem for years. But like, some of these things don’t require that. And not every team is going to like, if they feel it’s a day to day situation, if they feel it’s a minor thing, then, you know, don’t expect like, hey, dude had an X ray or dude had an MRI and he’s going to be shut down for basketball activities for two days and then be back at you. Like, it’s. It’s not always going to be like that. I’m not defending them. They’ve handled this poorly, in my opinion. But I do think, like, it requires context that not every single injury that happens in the NBA is going to require that kind of status update or an email from. From a team.
Ethan Sands: Correct. And I’m going to say is I feel like there have been more detailed injuries that could have been given information for. But you’re absolutely right. I don’t need to know if somebody tweaked an ankle or whatever because as every player in the locker room will tell you, everybody’s going through something. It’s the playoffs. You got to fight through it. It’s just about the severity and whether or not your body will allow you to play in said game. Jimmy, Chris, anything else you want to talk about before we get out of today’s podcast ahead of game three in Indiana tomorrow?
Chris Fedor: Nope. I’m all ready to go for game three. Should be fun.
Ethan Sands: And Jimmy’s shaking his head no. All right, with all that being said, that’ll wrap up today’s. Episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast, but remember to become a Cavs insider and interact with Chris, me and Jimmy by subscribing to Subtext. Chris Fedor is going to be in Indiana being foot on the ground, boots on the ground as they call it, and giving you updates throughout the weekend about what’s going on not only on the court, but behind the scenes, and whether or not these three players that we’ve talked about so much on today’s podcast will or won’t play, and the severity of what we learned throughout this weekend.
Chris Fedor: But hope you like updates on my Harry and Izzy experience in my golf game.
Ethan Sands: That too, all of that and above. But to get that information, you have to sign sign up for a 14 day free trial or visit cleveland.comcavs and click on the blue bar at the top of the page. If you don’t like it, that’s fine. All you have to do is text the word stop. It’s easy, but we can tell you that the people who sign up stick around because this is the best way to get insider coverage on the Cavs from me, Chris and Jimmy. This isn’t just our podcast, it’s your podcast. And the only way to have your voice heard is through subtext. Y’ all be safe. We out.
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